Warren Berg : 0:00

Good morning and welcome to the February edition of Ask the Lawyer Across Alberta on Windspeaker Radio CFWE and CJWE. I'm your host, Warren Berg, and joining us this month are Cynthia Carels and Anisa Dattu of Weir Bowen LLP in Edmonton.

Cynthia Carels: 0:14

Thanks very much, Warren happy to be here.

Anisa Dattu: 0:15

Thanks for having me back on the show, Warren. I am happy to be back.

Warren Berg : 0:19

Weir Bowen is an Edmonton-based law firm. However, their lawyers have represented clients across Alberta, BC, Saskatchewan and the Northwest Territories and have been counsel in precedent-setting cases all the way up to the Supreme Court of Canada.

Cynthia Carels: 0:31

Yeah, you know, our team has really had the privilege of advocating for clients across Alberta and beyond, like you mentioned, building a legacy of that trust and guidance, and we're obviously committed to helping people navigate some of you know, the truly the most challenging moments of their lives, with what we hope comes across as compassion as well as expertise.

Anisa Dattu: 0:51

Yeah, being part of the team at we Are Bowen, it is clear that all of us have benefited from the tremendous legacy of the many talented and committed lawyers who've been part of the firm ever since. There's a breadth of knowledge and you can never leave a meeting or conversation without some useful information at least.

Warren Berg : 1:06

So I guess the rumors are true and law firms can actually be truly supportive team environments. I've always known that TV dramas and true crime podcasts can give sometimes an unrealistic picture of what it might be like to be a lawyer. Those make the legal world seem and look downright terrifying sometimes.

Cynthia Carels: 1:26

Yeah, no for sure. And if I had a dollar for every time that someone said to me that you know, our career must be so dramatic or the coolest thing that they've ever watched on a television show, I literally wouldn't need to be a lawyer anymore.

Anisa Dattu: 1:37

Yeah, the truth is, our lives as lawyers are not as glamorous or as terrifying as depicted on TV or podcasts. Sure, we all have good and bad days, but it's a lot of time spent behind a screen, putting in countless hours of application and dedication. It's less about dramatic courtroom showdowns and more about meticulous research strategy and ensuring every detail is covered to serve our clients effectively. Oh and a ton of emails.

Warren Berg : 2:03

Well, as we've come to know over the course of this series, we're Bowen is very well known for its work in the area of personal injury and medical malpractice claims, and I understand that today we're going to be talking about how to figure out what a claim is worth and some of the issues arising in evaluating a claim.

Cynthia Carels: 2:19

Yeah, so I know, like we've mentioned in many of our previous shows, that determining the specific compensation that we can actually ask for and what someone can actually claim is truly one of the trickiest parts, and there's a lot of assessment that actually goes into all of that Exactly it's a large part of what we do quote unquote behind the scenes, and it's not a one size all fits process.

Anisa Dattu: 2:41

I would love if we could look into a crystal ball and even say that all clams should be worth $1 million.

Cynthia Carels: 2:47

But as with anything, there's a process and an evaluation that varies for each person, and you know even if two separate individuals are injured in exactly the same way, believe it or not, their compensation for those injuries could look entirely different.

Warren Berg : 3:03

So you're telling me that two individuals could both experience, let's say, a slip and fall on ice or get bitten by a dog, and their amount of compensation would be different.

Cynthia Carels: 3:12

Yeah, exactly, it's because of the process that we actually have to go through to evaluate that specific claim for the damages.

Warren Berg : 3:20

Now you've mentioned the word damages on the show before. For the benefit of our listeners at home, can you explain exactly what damages are in a legal context?

Anisa Dattu: 3:28

Absolutely. In legal terms, damages are the compensation awarded to cover your losses. We'll get into it in more detail, but, just as an introduction, there are two main types pecuniary damages and non-pecuniary damages. So basically, by pecuniary we mean monetary damages that can be mathematically calculated, such as the loss of income and cost of care, and non-pecuniary damages, which are more subjective and not something we actually meant to punish reckless behavior. So you know like we'll give the example of maybe a drunk driver causing a serious accident.

Cynthia Carels: 4:13

So when we're talking about, you know, personal injury and medical malpractice cases, the damages that we're talking about are all about getting injured people, the compensation that they deserve, as well as the support that they're going to need to move forward with their lives after an injury.

Warren Berg : 4:29

All right, so our focus is mainly on pecuniary and non-pecuniary damages today. When it comes to evaluating a claim, how do you even begin to put a dollar amount on somebody's injuries?

Cynthia Carels: 4:39

You know it's a great question and quite frequently it's one of the biggest reasons why people call us because they don't know what their claims are worth. So you know, when people come to us, their primary goal a lot of times isn't even framed in terms of money. They're calling us because they want to make sure that you know what happened to them doesn't happen to somebody else. And of course they're also wanting accountability from whoever they think it was that actually caused them the harm. And of course, assigning that culpability or the liability can be one motive for bringing a claim. But the primary thing that we as personal injury lawyers and the litigation process itself can offer is actually settlement or a judgment for the total value of those damages that a person has suffered, and essentially that's going to boil down to dollars and cents, or in other words, what we're calling today those damages that a person has suffered, and essentially that's going to boil down to dollars and cents, or in other words, what we're calling today those damages.

Anisa Dattu: 5:29

And if we go back to the first principles of tort law to explain where all this begins. And, of course, by tort law that's just a fancy legal term that basically relates to wrongful acts or omissions that cause people harm. The legal principle that underpins this area of law is actually a Latin phrase called restitio in integrum.

Warren Berg : 5:49

Restitio in integrum. I saved that one five times real fast. What in the world does restitio in integrum mean?

Anisa Dattu: 5:58

It sounds fancy, right. A lot of words in our legal vocabulary are actually old school Latin. By the time you graduate from law school, you've not only learned a new legal vocabulary, but it feels like you've actually minored in Latin. Restitutio in integrum is actually a very simple concept. It means restoration to the original condition.

Cynthia Carels: 6:16

So in personal injury law, the goal that we have is to put an injured person back into the position that they were in before the accident, at least as much as possible, to the extent that, you know, magical money can do any of that. So that could mean, you know, covering someone's medical bills, their lost income and even providing some compensation for their pain and suffering. But of course, you know, some injuries just simply can't be undone, no matter how much money we throw at it. So the idea here is to provide fair compensation to help restore that balance as well as we can. So the next time you hear a phrase like restitutio in integrum, just think of it as the legal system's way of saying let's do what we can to make this right.

Warren Berg : 6:58

Okay, so that makes a lot of sense. Basically, it's not about giving somebody a payday, but rather making sure that they aren't left struggling because of somebody else's mistake.

Cynthia Carels: 7:07

Yeah or we're not here to try to get somebody an unfair advantage. You know to have a legal windfall land on their lap. This is truly about fairness.

Anisa Dattu: 7:15

And if you're injured due to someone else's negligence, you shouldn't be the one stuck with the medical bills or lost wages. The law aims to restore what was lost as much as possible. Of course, money can't undo everything, especially in serious injury cases, but it's one of the best tools that we have to help people move forward. Hence why Cynthia said earlier that it boils down to just the dollars and cents.

Cynthia Carels: 7:37

Yeah, so when we're evaluating a claim, we're actually going to be looking at some very specific categories of potential damages that we're going to look at.

Anisa Dattu: 7:46

A lot of people assume that there's some kind of magic formula to determine a claim's value, but in reality it depends on an assessment. In these categories.

Cynthia Carels: 7:53

So I don't know if you've ever taken the time to try to actually read a court decision.

Warren Berg : 7:58

No.

Cynthia Carels: 7:58

For nerds like Anissa and I they're fascinating nighttime reading. But if you do decide at some point to read a court decision, you'll see that a justice will likely break down their decisions into specific categories and some of them are even going to be using subheadings. Some don't, but mainly all of these categories are sort of following a similar pattern and they're looking fairly similar. So sometimes there's categories that are less common we'll take a look at a little bit later, but it's just more ways for us to try and cover all of the bases that we're going to need to, and these categories help us to assist our clients to get as much as they can from their specific claims.

Warren Berg : 8:36

All right, so let's start. What is the first category of damages that you would look at?

Cynthia Carels: 8:41

Okay, I don't want to be misleading here either.

Cynthia Carels: 8:43

It's not like this is a true step-by-step process, but, generally speaking, one of the first things that we're trying to evaluate is a broad category called general damages. In other words, it's that sort of the pain, the suffering, the loss of enjoyment of life, and it's one of those non-pecuniary areas, so something that you can't actually really calculate, where you know we can sit down with a mathematical formula, plug in some dollars and cents and come out with a magic number. So here we're going to need to assess this based on an individual's circumstances, their specific injuries and, in general, their pain, suffering and loss of enjoyment of life. So these general damages are providing compensation for things like you know, your discomfort, the psychological anguish that you have after an injury, the loss of enjoyment of life, even perhaps the loss of expectation of life, so perhaps your longevity, the loss of convenience, all of those kinds of things. Like you know, an example in February would be something like being able to shovel your driveway without you know, coming back in the house and enduring two days of agony.

Anisa Dattu: 9:49

Yeah, exactly, and damages for pain and suffering include compensation for these intangible types of things like someone's inability to participate in their recreational activities and hobbies. Can you imagine a life without playing hockey? It is meant to provide the person with some consolation for their losses and to make life more endurable. It is not meant to be an award based on sympathy or even as a tool to punish the wrongdoer, but it is intended to replace some pleasure in a plaintiff's life.

Cynthia Carels: 10:15

So truly by nature. Calculating damages like this is an artificial measure, because there's really no way you can accurately measure pain and suffering using dollars. It's not like there's a market where we can go out to. You know that people are going to bid on the value of someone's lost ability to pick up their grandkids. Or you know, like the example Anissa brought up of you know not being able to go play a hockey game anymore, how much would you take in compensation for not being able to do that anymore? Would you take in compensation for not being able to do that anymore? So it's almost, you know, trite to say that money can't buy happiness. So whatever the number is that we ultimately end up assigning to that pain and suffering, it's obviously not going to actually fix the problem. It's not going to buy that happiness back or make someone's suffering go away. However, just because it's challenging to calculate doesn't mean that the courts aren't going to try their very best to put a value on it.

Anisa Dattu: 11:09

Yeah, and the way that we do that is by looking to precedence, so in other words, past cases, like we did previously for our listeners in this episode. All of the lawyers at Weir Bowen are very well versed in legal research required to assess someone's general damages. It involves researching Canadian cases with similar injuries, similarly injured people with similar life circumstances and coming up with a range that the courts have awarded in previous cases.

Cynthia Carels: 11:36

And it's important to contextualize this pain and suffering hit of damage, because certain injuries are going to impact different people in different ways as well. So, for example, seemingly minor injuries can cause great suffering and seemingly major injuries might actually result in fairly little suffering for other kind of people.

Cynthia Carels: 11:55

So we often will use this example of, you know, a pinky finger and it might seem like a, you know, a relatively minor injury in comparison to some other types of injuries. However, if you were, let's say, liberace, a famous pianist, a career-ending injury could be an injury to your pinky finger. And so this is where a lawyer's advocacy and their skill set really comes into play, because we're going to try to paint a picture of how this particular person, how our client as an individual, was impacted with their physical injury, you know. So, again, losing that the ability to to use your pinky finger, it could be a huge psychological injury for not being able to play the piano as well, or perhaps not even being able to play it at all. They might just give, give it up entirely, you know, or coming to the realization that everything that somebody had worked their entire lives for is now not going to be possible in the same manner anymore.

Warren Berg : 12:53

So what type of number might we be looking at for pain and suffering damages or non-pecuniary damages?

Anisa Dattu: 13:00

Well, for that, warren, we need to start with a little bit of a legal history lesson. In the late 70s, the Supreme Court of Canada decided to implement a $100,000 upper limit for pain and suffering damages, so this is a series of cases that we call in our legal circles the trilogy. These three cases involved catastrophically injured young people and if you read the cases, the victim's stories are all very devastating. In addition to their very serious physical injuries, the psychological trauma was also highly relevant and with the trilogy cases, the Supreme Court decided to set a $100,000 at the upper limit for pain and suffering as a result of some policy-related concerns. They were truly witnessing the way litigation culture was trending in the United States and the astronomically sized wards. They decided Canada needed to go in a different direction for several reasons.

Cynthia Carels: 13:54

Now there's a lot that goes into those reasons and we're not going to have time to go through all of those. But thankfully the pain and suffering sort of cap that they set back in the 1970s has moved to keep up with inflation. So when it was set in the 1970s we commonly refer to it as sort of a cap on those general damages and it was $100,000 then. When we index it for inflation now it's over $450,000. So that's generally regarded as sort of the high watermark that somebody could get for their pain and suffering, and obviously the higher end of that amount is going to be reserved for people with the most catastrophic injuries.

Warren Berg : 14:33

And this cap only applies to general damages.

Cynthia Carels: 14:36

That is correct and that is actually part of the piece of the policy decisions that Anissa was referring to. So, yeah, the cap only refers to that pain and suffering award, those non-pecuniary damages. It does not apply to the calculatable ones. And so this was that tradeoff where the Supreme Court rationalized that general damages for pain and suffering should be capped, but future care costs or loss of income, those things would not be capped to ensure that an injured person's future was fully accounted for.

Warren Berg : 15:04

This is probably a good time to talk to our listeners about how they can get in touch with you if they need to talk to a lawyer. But a personal injury claim, whether it be a motor vehicle accident or medical malpractice or some other type of injury what is the best way to get in contact with you?

Cynthia Carels: 15:17

So the easiest way is to check out our website, which is we'rebowencom, that's W-E-I-R-B-O-W-E-N dot com, and on our contacts page there's a form that you can fill in and our reception staff will make sure that your inquiry gets to the right people.

Warren Berg : 15:32

And what if the internet isn't an option?

Anisa Dattu: 15:34

Well, we love to take what we call cold calls, so just call our main reception line at 780-424-2030, and our receptionist can get you in touch with one of our team members, which includes myself, Cynthia and our other fantastic lawyers.

Warren Berg : 15:55

This is Ask the Lawyer on Winspeaker Radio CFWE and CJWE. I'm your host, warren Berg, and joining us today are Anissa Datu and Cynthia Carrolls of Weir Bowen LLP in Edmonton. That's W-E-I-R-B-O-W-E-N. Their phone number is 780-424-2030 or online at wearebowencom. Now we were talking about the cap of general damages. Let's jump back into that. So what injuries might constitute being at the top of the cap and what injuries constitute being closer to the bottom?

Anisa Dattu: 16:26

That's a great question. So the more permanent, severe and life-altering the injuries are, the higher the general damages that are awarded. Minor injuries that heal quickly with little long-term impact tend to fall closer to the bottom of the cap. The more minor injuries are closer to the bottom of the cap and the more significant injuries get you closer to the top of the cap. So when we're talking, about minor injuries.

Cynthia Carels: 16:49

They can include things like whiplash, like sprains, strains, generally injuries that you know cause pain and suffering and they heal in a few months. More major injuries are going to include things like broken bones. You know more catastrophic things like spinal cord injuries, serious head injury, brain trauma, psychological injuries, permanent disabilities and, of course, those really big ones like being rendered. You know a total quadriplegic or a paraplegic, you know things like that. I could go on.

Anisa Dattu: 17:18

We also look at how the injuries affect our clients beyond the actual physical injuries. We really try to get to know our clients so that we can tell their story about who they were before the loss and who they are after the loss to justify the amount of general damages that we assess that are appropriate to their claim.

Warren Berg : 17:34

Now, what would sound to me like the very high end of this cap is extremely hard to claim.

Anisa Dattu: 17:39

That's correct, Warren. While we want our clients to receive the most compensation in this area, this includes looking at the severity of the injury that we discuss, the duration of the recovery, the impact on their daily life, the emotional and psychological effects and, of course, precedent case law all assist us in our assessment.

Warren Berg : 17:57

So how does precedent case law assist you when you're looking at general damages?

Cynthia Carels: 18:01

So these general damages are often influenced by past legal cases where we're looking for sort of similar types of clients who've had similar kinds of injuries and court decisions in previous personal injury claims. You know a lot of them are published and available accessibly through databases and they provide us with a lot of guidance on how much compensation should be awarded for certain types of injuries. So you know, lawyers on our team are going to look at past cases of similar injuries that, have you know, resulted in an Alberta-based judgment. Sometimes we'll have to look to other provinces if we can't find a good precedent in Alberta and we're going to use those to estimate what a reasonable amount of compensation might be for our client. And the courts do tend to rely on precedents to ensure that we have consistent awards across.

Anisa Dattu: 18:48

The different kinds of cases rely on precedents to ensure that we have consistent awards across the different kinds of cases and to put some context to it, I think it would be helpful if we look at some recent Alberta cases where the highest end of the general damages cap was awarded in court. Now, believe it or not, but there actually is not that much recent case law where the higher end of the general damages cap was awarded, and this just shows how rare and hard it is to claim. One of the most recent cases is actually all the way back to 2020. This case went all the way to trial at the court of King's Bench in Alberta, in Edmonton, for a medical malpractice case involving a urologist, cynthia. Does this case sound familiar?

Cynthia Carels: 19:24

to you. Yeah, it does. Now, for privacy reasons, even though this is actually a published case that is available on the publicly available case databases, we'll just call the plaintiff in this case, mr John, because he actually was a client of our office and our team really does like to collaborate when we can because it helps us to explore all of the different angles we can look at in a case to ensure that we're providing the best representation we can and also that we're moving the case along as efficiently as possible, and I remember that this case considered the issues of surgical and post-surgical standards of care. It also involved some issues relating to informed consent a bunch of those things we talk about on our medical malpractice shows. There was causation issues, contributory negligence and, of course, obviously the general damages for the catastrophic injuries that were suffered by this fellow. We're calling Mr John.

Anisa Dattu: 20:23

Yeah, precisely Cynthia. So in the fall of 2005, a urologist performed a green light laser procedure to treat Mr John's enlarged prostate. Unfortunately, mr John developed progressively worse symptoms with his bladder and kidneys. He had to, unfortunately, undergo dialysis multiple times each week. His life was severely impaired and his life expectancy was reduced. Mr John alleged that the urologist breached the standard of care and the duty of informed consent. The court found that, but for the neurologist's negligent acts, mr John would not have suffered injuries to his bladder, ureters and kidneys.

Cynthia Carels: 21:02

And when we look at the general damages assessment in this case for his pain and suffering, we're going to look at before surgery. Mr John, so this fellow was an active parent, he worked two jobs, was very involved in his community and volunteer activities and he was an active or very avid hockey player and he experienced devastating negative changes in his lifestyle after all of this went wrong. He suffered kidney failure, incontinence, sexual dysfunction and other medical conditions. He, you know, felt truly drained after his dialysis and he ended up being diagnosed with depression, emotional outbursts, he was prone to anger more often in his relationships with his family and friends, suffered. He ended up having to stop working, curtailed his leisure sports and volunteer activities. Stop working, curtailed his leisure sports and volunteer activities.

Cynthia Carels: 21:51

And all in all you know, it ended up being a raise in his pain and suffering and a huge loss of his enjoyment of life.

Anisa Dattu: 22:04

Yeah, and our team completed an assessment and found that $381,529 was an appropriate assessment of Mr John's general damages. The urologist's defense counsel claimed that $200,000 was an appropriate amount of general damages. So now in this story, defense counsel claimed that $200,000 was an appropriate amount of general damages.

Cynthia Carels: 22:12

So now in this story it is really important to remind everyone that that cap of general damages does adjust with inflation and when this case went to trial, our firm was basically claiming almost the cap of that amount of general damages at that time. So you can see how seriously we thought Mr John's injuries were in, just in terms of us saying that our assessment should be at the high end of that cap as it was calculated at the time.

Anisa Dattu: 22:38

Absolutely. Mr John experienced a significant and devastating negative change in his lifestyle since the green light laser surgery. The court even commented that there is no amount of non-pecuniary general damages that would ever fully compensate, much less overcompensate, Mr John for his loss. The court awarded $350,000 of general damages, which is only slightly below the cap at that time and our overall assessment.

Cynthia Carels: 23:03

So yeah, the lawyers at our firm were obviously very pleased with that decision of the court because it showed recognition for everything that this poor fellow suffered due to the medical negligence by his urologist. And the court's remarks also highlighted that even at the upper limit of that general damages cap the number's wrong. No amount of money can fully compensate or overcompensate certain individuals for their losses.

Anisa Dattu: 23:29

Yeah, and that's just a reality of the cap, of general damages and what we as lawyers have to work with. It's a tough conversation to have with our clients sometimes because in some cases, if not most, they really should receive more in general damages. But, like the court said, sometimes there really is no amount that can ever fully compensate someone and the cap helps us assess and award general damages so that there's a recognition of the pain and suffering and there can be some finality to everything the plaintiff has gone through.

Cynthia Carels: 23:57

And honestly, initially, many people who contact us aren't necessarily interested in the damages or the financial compensation for their losses.

Cynthia Carels: 24:05

They just want to get justice you know, whatever justice looks like to them for what happened to them, and lots of times an individual's losses have not even really fully materialized by the time that they're calling us, you know, so that we could even be able to just tell them off the back of our hands what they might be entitled to. So, no matter what, once there is an offer on the table in the negotiations, that's when it truly comes to light that the amount for general damages is. You know just, it's always the wrong number. It's, frankly, not what, you know, a lot of people imagine for what they've been through, for all of their pain, suffering and all of the things that they've lost in their lives.

Warren Berg : 24:42

Well, I can certainly understand why somebody might feel like that. I mean, if it were me, I'd probably wonder why I'm not getting a big payday from somebody who caused me an injury or lost. You know, a million dollars Always has a nice ring to it, don't you think?

Anisa Dattu: 24:56

Yeah, we hear that a lot, especially when our neighbors in the United States have astronomical personal injury awards.

Cynthia Carels: 25:02

Yeah, but aside from the general damages and the cap on that, we are actually more focused in Canada on those pecuniary damages because those aren't capped and those are things that we actually can calculate with. You know some really principled arguments. So this means, if your particular losses are large enough, it is entirely possible that you still might cross that $1 million amount that you know obviously does seem, at least theoretically to those of us who aren't injured in accidents at the moment to be quite a nice number.

Warren Berg : 25:35

So you're telling me that somebody could actually get $1 million from their personal injury or medical malpractice lawsuit?

Cynthia Carels: 25:40

Oh yeah, no, it does happen, not always. So we certainly wouldn't want to leave anybody with the impression that we're delivering a lot of million-dollar settlements all the time. The circumstances of the injuries have to warrant it and we do see that come across our desks from time to time. But it really does come down to what your specific losses are, and obviously the more catastrophic the loss is. Those aren't things we want people to be suffering. But if the damages warrant it, then we can actually claim those higher numbers if the injuries are severe enough.

Warren Berg : 26:11

So what are some of the other losses that might go into an evaluation of damages?

Anisa Dattu: 26:15

Well, there are many different categories that we can talk about here. The main categories we deal with are an injured person's loss of income or their loss of earning capacity, their loss of the ability to perform housekeeping, things like their out-of-pocket expenses, the loss of an adult interdependent relationship, the cost of medical or healthcare treatments and out-of-pocket expenses, which I think I already said, but it all has to be in relation to their injuries.

Warren Berg : 26:39

Now it would sound to me like we would need a whole day to go through all of these.

Cynthia Carels: 26:43

Yeah, you know, in some of our cases, it takes a few years actually to go through all of these. So it's why it is really important to have an experienced lawyer representing you, because oftentimes when someone's injured, it's going to impact all facets of their lives and there are so many different aspects that we're going to need to look at to make sure that the compensation we're asking for is appropriate.

Anisa Dattu: 27:04

Yeah, and often one of the biggest ways someone is impacted is their inability to perform at work. So, for example, some people have to take time away to recover or undergo surgeries and rehabilitation. Some people can no longer perform physical labor due to pain. Some people can't maintain static positioning for lengthy periods of time, some people cannot continue sitting at their desk jobs because they get just debilitating headaches from staring at a screen all day, and some people suffer disabling psychological injuries. This list can go on.

Cynthia Carels: 27:34

There are all sorts of ways that someone's ability to earn income can be impacted by their injuries, yeah, or some people you know can only work part-time or they might be forced to change careers entirely, and there are many different ways to try and measure what this loss actually looks like. And it sometimes depends on what type of working arrangement that our client actually had before their injury.

Warren Berg : 27:56

I mean, it's definitely unfortunate when somebody can't continue to work due to their injuries. What exactly goes into that evaluation process?

Cynthia Carels: 28:03

So obviously some strong lawyering, but quite frequently also the use of solid experts and the good old magic of math.

Cynthia Carels: 28:11

Quite frankly, there's a lot more to the loss of income than most people see at kind of face value. And while it's easier to determine how much someone has lost, you know, say by the days, weeks or months or even years of not working due to their injuries, it's a lot harder to calculate someone's you know future loss of income because those things are uncertain. Perhaps someone's loss of earning capacity compared to what they otherwise might have been able to earn had they not been injured. And of course someone's loss of competitive advantage. Again, these are sort of intangible things and you know there's all sorts of other things that go along with that, like perhaps defined benefits, pension programs that person loses an opportunity to maximize because of their injuries, other things that go along with that, like perhaps defined benefits, pension programs that a person loses an opportunity to maximize because of their injuries. So a lot of these analysis can be a little less than straightforward and can take retaining some talented third-party experts to assist.

Anisa Dattu: 29:01

Yeah, and in some situations with a person who worked as an employee, you can look at their tax and employment records to see how much income they have lost and try to project their earnings that the plaintiff would have received had they not been injured.

Cynthia Carels: 29:12

And then the task of the court obviously is to project, as accurately as they can, what the income of the plaintiff would have been but for this wrongdoing. And then their job is to compare that to the income that the plaintiff is now capable of earning, and then their job is to award what that difference would be.

Warren Berg : 29:30

I would imagine that's really hard to predict what if the person is really young when they're injured?

Anisa Dattu: 29:35

It can definitely be challenging to predict and it's a lot easier to do when someone has an education, work or an income earning history that you can plot their trajectory going forward. But, having said that, it is still possible to value the loss when someone has no earning history, like an infant or a child for example.

Cynthia Carels: 29:53

Actually, many of Weir Bowen's clients involve infant plaintiffs who've never even started school yet, let alone worked. So the best crystal ball that we have to work with in those situations is Canadian statistics. In those kinds of cases we're going to be looking at all sorts of collateral evidence to help us put together an argument for what a child's most likely educational career path would have been when framed through the education levels and career paths of perhaps the child's parents or other close relatives. We're also going to be looking at where they live, what sort of access they might have had to post-secondary education and even some market factors to predict what that person would probably have earned in their lifetime. It's not going to be perfect, obviously, but our job in these cases is to establish some likely trajectories that are more likely than not, given that individual's particular circumstances.

Warren Berg : 30:43

Now it looks like, as a lawyer, you guys are crossing all of the bases when it comes to plaintiffs of all different ages. Going back to something that was mentioned earlier, how might this change based upon a person's working arrangement?

Anisa Dattu: 30:54

Well, Warren, it depends on how a person arranges their work life. Sometimes people are not your typical salaried or hourly employees who receive T4 assessments every year. So sometimes some people have their own businesses as sole proprietors or through a corporation, or even family farms. In those situations we may have to look at reduced revenue streams, the cost to hire replacement labor or the economic hits that the business took as a result of the plaintiff's injuries. In these cases, we'll have to rely on the business records to demonstrate how their income was impacted.

Warren Berg : 31:27

Now this sounds really complex. How do you calculate all of those numbers?

Cynthia Carels: 31:31

Oh, thankfully Weir Bowen has access to a nice, dependable pool of experts that we go to for advice and they're really good at performing these calculations for us. So you know, in some of the examples that Anissa just gave, a lot of these arrangements actually involve different goals for accounting before an accident happens, and one of the big goals is trying to drive down taxable income for an individual or a business that they're declaring to the government. So sometimes when we're looking at the bottom line on a tax return, it actually might not appear that an individual business was particularly profitable. But then when we dig a bit deeper, we have our experts. Take a look at all of the benefits that that individual derived from their business, such as write-offs for their vehicles and mileage, their cell phones, their insurance. Even some of the things like, you know, the meals and accommodations can be write-offs. Then we can start building a much more accurate picture of the individual's particular losses when they can no longer generate as much revenue for their corporations.

Warren Berg : 32:32

What kind of I guess information experts might you use to calculate the loss of income?

Cynthia Carels: 32:37

So it all depends on the individual case. So, for example, we might lean on, say, an occupational therapist to see what kind of accommodations that a person might need. We might look at a vocational expert to assess what kind of jobs a person can perform with their current limitations. And quite frequently we're also talking to economists and accountants to calculate out the present value of our clients' future losses. And sometimes we need to actually look at really specialized business evaluators and in the case of, like, say, an injured farmer, for example, we might even be looking for evaluators with extremely specialized expertise in like the cash accounting that's used in the agricultural context, because some of those valuations can be really complex.

Warren Berg : 33:21

Who knew there would be so many evaluators specialized in well assessing a farmer's income? Oh yeah, there's a lot. We briefly touched base about a future loss and loss of earning capacity. How is that different than loss of income?

Anisa Dattu: 33:34

Well, a loss of capacity is awarded when there is a real and substantial possibility that the plaintiff's ability to earn income or successfully compete for jobs in the future has been impaired. So, for example, even if an injured person is able to return to work in some capacity, they may no longer be able to take advantage of all of the opportunities that could have been available to them before. They might even be less desirable as a potential employee to future employers, or they might not be as capable of earning promotions with their current employer just because they aren't working at their pre-accident capabilities. So in situations where an injured person has an accommodating employer and they're able to return to work in some capacity, making the same salary as they did pre-accident, the loss doesn't really show up on paper, but in most cases there can still be a claim.

Cynthia Carels: 34:25

And it's not necessarily the loss of an income stream per se, but it's rather meant to compensate for the loss of an asset. So we know, statistics show someone with chronic pain is more likely to have to retire early. They won't likely work as much overtime. They might require more sick time. They to have to retire early. They won't likely work as much overtime. They might require more sick time. They might have to go to more appointments and might need more accommodations in their workplace. And when that happens, that intrinsic competitive advantage in the labor market has been harmed. And it's still something that we argue deserves to be compensated.

Warren Berg : 34:56

How do you figure out how to calculate the loss of capacity or the loss of competitive advantage in some of these income claims?

Anisa Dattu: 35:03

You're just asking all the right questions today, warren, always keeping us on point and making sure the listeners are getting all that nuanced information. Yeah, so figuring out how to calculate a loss of capacity to earn income is another category that is quite flexible and the court has a wide discretion.

Cynthia Carels: 35:17

So again we're going to tend to rely on a series of precedent cases where the court basically admits that sometimes these precise calculations are going to be impossible, even though the plaintiff has clearly suffered that intuitive intrinsic loss of capacity or competitive advantage. And for a while. Those precedents would put a value of $30,000 to $50,000 on some of those kinds of awards.

Anisa Dattu: 35:40

But more recently the courts have actually been awarding sort of a lump sum of an injured person's annual income for a year or two and obviously younger plaintiffs do tend to get larger awards than older plaintiffs just because they have more working years ahead of them Exactly, and that's where sometimes a claim could easily be worth $1 million or more, because sometimes a loss of earning capacity or a loss of future income assessment for many years can really add up and play a big part in the calculation of damages.

Warren Berg : 36:07

Okay, so what's next in the evaluation of a claim once you've figured out a person's loss of income or capacity to earn income?

Cynthia Carels: 36:13

Okay. So again, it's not necessarily a step-by-step process. A lot of these things are kind of happening tangentially, but in many cases where we're actually evaluating all parts of a claim kind of at the same time. But for today, the next category that we're going to look at is called a loss of valuable services, and this actually refers to all of the unpaid labor that we do in our daily lives, and they are activities that hold a lot of value, even though we don't generally go around asking to get paid for that work, even though a lot of times it actually feels like a second job.

Warren Berg : 36:47

I couldn't agree with you more, Cynthia. From household tasks like vacuuming and sweeping and, of course, the never-ending laundry, cooking meals, mowing the lawn, taking out the trash, you name it. It takes up a lot of time, and I can only imagine that when you're injured, some of these tasks might be really more difficult and, for some of them, downright impossible.

Anisa Dattu: 37:06

Please don't remind me about the never-ending laundry or even just how many times I am cleaning my kitchen. But you got it, warren. Performing housekeeping tasks is enough of an ordeal as it is. When someone is dealing with pain, issues with mobility issues, issues with range of motion, fatigue and everything that goes along with having an injury, keeping up around the home is often one of the first things that get sacrificed.

Cynthia Carels: 37:28

So when a person's injuries impact their ability to perform their regular household tasks and chores compared to how they had done it before the injury occurred, we're going to claim for a loss of valuable services, and the key word there is valuable, and you were definitely on the nail with some of the tasks that you named, warren. You know there's even more tasks and include things like the cleaning, the cooking, the laundry, the pet care, meal prep, making lunches, shopping for groceries, taking kids to their activities, shoveling snow, mowing the lawn all sorts of other unpaid work that keeps our homes and the economies going Very interesting.

Warren Berg : 38:04

So does this mean that somebody, if they get in, or if somebody gets reimbursed, rather if they have to hire and pay for help to do those kind of tasks?

Cynthia Carels: 38:13

Yeah, I mean if you pay out of money because you can't, or pay out of pocket because you can't do these tasks for sure, even if someone hasn't gone out and hired replacement services, though, the injured person can still receive compensation for the loss of that asset if they're not actually performing their usual tasks, and that actually comes straight from precedent case law as well. So it's great to see that courts actually understand that this category can show up in many different ways. So, while some people will definitely go out and hire a cleaning service or a yard service, sometimes there might be family members that are involved and they're picking up the slack for free, or in other cases, the work might go undone entirely.

Anisa Dattu: 38:54

Exactly, and it's very common for us to hear from our clients that their standard of cleanliness or getting things done are affected by their injuries because they just simply cannot cope, especially when they're relying on others.

Warren Berg : 39:05

So how is this category a pecuniary loss in the context of your evaluation of a claim, if this is largely unpaid work and an injured person does not hire anyone?

Cynthia Carels: 39:16

Nice use of the word pecuniary there, thank you. The courts have recognized that homemaking services do have an economic value and it is still very capable of quantification and compensation. Even though it's largely unpaid work.

Anisa Dattu: 39:30

It's not showing up on your T4s or your tax returns we're still going to consider this a calculatable pecuniary loss and in order to quantify the loss, courts compare the amount of housework performed by the plaintiff prior to the accident and with the amount of housework the plaintiff is capable of performing after the accident. The court assigns an hourly rate to the time that's lost, which is largely based on market data that we can get for that kind of work.

Warren Berg : 39:57

And what if somebody doesn't know how much time they spent? Is that something people are even keeping track of in their daily lives?

Anisa Dattu: 40:04

Honestly, including myself a lot of people really don't have a good idea, but we can look at things like the size of their home, the number of bedrooms, bathrooms, the number of how many children they have, their pets, size of their yard and, again, statistics to help us quantify things as best as we can. Sometimes we need an expert to chime in and help us out in this category.

Cynthia Carels: 40:24

Yeah, most definitely, and this is something that an occupational therapist is actually particularly expert at helping us to quantify for particular individuals' sets of circumstances. So it's their job to help us really understand all of the things that people do that occupy their time and make demands on their bodies. So occupational therapists are a great resource for us to call on to help place a value on an injured person's loss of housekeeping capacity and also to help us determine the fair market value of those costs, you know, to replace those services with paid professionals like housekeepers, handymen, snow removal services and even lawn care removal or lawn care companies.

Warren Berg : 41:04

And what if somebody actually does hire replacement services? Can they get reimbursed for those?

Cynthia Carels: 41:09

Yeah. So that question is actually a really great segue into our next head or category of damages. That's part of our evaluation in this equation, and that is those out-of-pocket expenses. Sometimes we'll call them special damages, but the quick answer generally is yes. If a person has to hire replacement services to do work that they otherwise would have done themselves for free, then we're definitely going to seek recovery for those special kinds of damages. So what are special damages? They are quantifiable losses that an individual has actually suffered due to their injury. So, for example, it can include those replacement labor costs. It can include treatment costs, costs of medical devices, costs of adapting a home, costs of assistive devices. All of those kinds of things are out-of-pocket expenses that are going to go into a claim and we're going to be asking for reimbursement for those, and typically we can, and it's obviously best, though, if we can actually provide things like receipts and actual verifiable documentation to support what someone has actually had to pay out of their own pocket.

Warren Berg : 42:13

And what about all of the money that people have to unexpectedly spend after an accident for things like crutches or ambulance bills or even replacing their glasses if those are broken in the accident?

Anisa Dattu: 42:25

Yeah, so all those things, and even things like parking and mileage for going to and from an appointment, crutches, ambulance bills, replacing eyeglasses that are broken in an accident all those things, warren, this category is just so wide enough to capture a lot of out-of-pocket expenses that we can make a claim for, so it's important to stay organized and keep your receipts and proof of payment for these services and any out-of-pocket expenses.

Warren Berg : 42:47

This is Ask the Lawyer on Windspeaker Radio CFWE and CJWE. I'm your host, warren Berg, and here with us today are Cynthia Carrolls and Anissa Datu from we're Bowen LLP, talking about what goes into evaluating a claim in personal injury and medical malpractice litigation. Weir Bowen can be reached at 780-424-2030 or online at weirbowencom. That's W-E-I-R-B-O-W-E-Ncom dot com. And today we are discussing how we're Bowen's lawyers figure out the value of compensation for an injured person and how much they're entitled to in various kinds of personal injury lawsuits, and so far we've talked about the damages for pain and suffering, for loss of income and earning capacity, as well as an individual's loss of capacity to perform valuable but typically unpaid services. So where are we going next?

Cynthia Carels: 43:40

Oh, this next one super, super interesting, but it's also a little bit controversial, especially here in Alberta. But in a nutshell, this one talks about the loss or the impaired ability to benefit from an adult interdependent relationship. Now, damages for this kind of claim have been awarded in other Canadian jurisdictions but so far, as far as we're aware, it hasn't been specifically awarded by a court in Alberta yet. But the court has recently said that the door is not closed to awarding this kind of damage in the right circumstances in the future. So this area was originally called the loss of opportunity to marry or someone's loss of marriageability, but it all basically boils down to someone's likelihood to benefit from forming a permanent relationship of financial interdependency.

Anisa Dattu: 44:35

Yeah, this area has some overlap with general damages that we talked about earlier. To some extent, some of this is a non-monetary loss for the emotional benefits of a relationship, but some of it is also an economic component, which we will briefly touch on.

Cynthia Carels: 44:50

So there is an economic benefit of living with another person in a financially interdependent relationship, generally speaking. So, for example, certain expenses that would be incurred by a single person who lives alone can become shared expenses in a couple and, generally speaking, the math shows that two people can live together more economically than one person living alone. So there are all sorts of shared expenses, as well as increased combined family income and shared homemaking, all of which can actually lead to calculatable economic benefits.

Warren Berg : 45:27

Now I would imagine that it would be kind of speculative to guess about who will be in a relationship or not and what the other person might bring to the table.

Cynthia Carels: 45:35

Yeah, you might argue that, yeah, you might argue that, and when you think about it you know. Basically, all of tort law damages, especially those future ones, require looking into a crystal ball and trying to hypothesize what might have been if someone hadn't been injured.

Anisa Dattu: 45:50

And it's no secret that dating is definitely an unpredictable roller coaster. But marriage does not always result in a net economic benefit for everyone. But we can use the statistical evidence from experts to try and quantify the loss, which is what we do for the other heads of damages. So the test in this situation is whether the plaintiff can establish the possibility that their ability to form an economically beneficial relationship has been impaired because of their injuries. They don't even need to prove that they will never enter such a relationship. But unfortunately there just hasn't been a plaintiff with the right set of facts to prove this loss in Alberta yet.

Warren Berg : 46:25

I guess time will tell if the Alberta courts decide to award damages for the impaired ability to make or benefit from an interdependent relationship. So, moving on, I would imagine that somebody with an injury would also have significant care needs that might carry a hefty price tag as well.

Cynthia Carels: 46:40

Oh yeah, and calculating the cost of care is very important to us to make sure that our clients have access to what they're going to need for treatment and supports into the future. So a plaintiff, an injured person, is entitled to claim for any expenses that they have incurred to meet their care needs, For example, home care, physiotherapy, massage therapy, private nursing, wheelchairs many, many types of expenses that an injured person might incur.

Anisa Dattu: 47:06

Then we also have to forecast what medical needs a person will have going into the future. The prime purpose of this head of damages is to make sure that a plaintiff has adequate care for as long as they need due to their injuries, even after the lawsuit has resolved.

Cynthia Carels: 47:21

Yeah, and as we talked about earlier, the goal here is to try to put the injured person into the position that they otherwise would have been in but for the negligence. To the extent that we can do that with money and of course money is not a great substitute for someone's health but to the extent that it can be used to improve someone's course, it's going to form part of the claim. So the law requires that compensation be moderate, just and fair to both parties and future care awards are not granted out of sympathy. They're also not awarded out of retribution. They are determined by what is reasonably necessary to support the individual's mental and physical well-being, to put them back into the position that they would have been had the accident not happened. So we're not trying to put somebody up into an elevated echelon. Additionally, the cost must be medically justifiable, and that's not always the same as being medically necessary.

Anisa Dattu: 48:17

Yeah, so, for example, we might call a speech-language pathologist at trial to testify that the plaintiff's brain injury has resulted in a speech impairment and an iPad would help them with communication. Does the plaintiff need an iPad to survive? Not always and probably not, but it's connected to their impairment and there's a medical justification for it. Yeah, the test is whether a reasonable person of ample means would incur the particular expense.

Warren Berg : 48:43

So how do you go about proving what is medical justified?

Cynthia Carels: 48:46

So sometimes we can guesstimate in this area in a reasonable manner to save costs for our clients to retain an expert. But of course it's really going to be dependent upon that person's injuries. So the more minor the injury, the easier it's going to be for us to do some lawyer math to estimate what they're likely going to need or a future care cost based on other cases that we've prosecuted in our experience. But if we can't do that and the circumstances or the injuries warrant it, then again this is a place where we're going to be relying on those experts to do that crystal ball gazing for us. They're here to educate us and also the court on what specific requirements are medically justifiable for the injured person.

Warren Berg : 49:27

You had mentioned earlier that family members can sometimes be involved in helping to care for the injured person and assisting them. Can a loved one make a claim for any kind of compensation?

Cynthia Carels: 49:36

Yeah, as much as I would love to shout out yes, in all circumstances. It really truly unfortunately depends. So the law recognizes that when a loved one is injured parents, spouses, family members, you know often they are going to step up and take on caregiving duties for free. That would otherwise come with a hefty price tag and without their help the injured person might have to shell out big bucks for professional care simply to get out of the hospital and get back home. And courts are not going to expect family members to do all of that work for free. They're not going to be downloading, you know, providing care on what's called a gratuitous basis.

Cynthia Carels: 50:17

However, that does not mean that they automatically award damages for this type of care either. Again, each case is going to be considered individually to determine whether compensation is actually warranted.

Anisa Dattu: 50:30

The courts have said that normal compassion and care from a spouse or family member are not compensable. But the extra services that are provided are compensable and this is something we call an in-trust claim. It's still framed through the losses and needs of the injured individual. It's just not awarded as direct compensation to the caregiver for all of their economic losses. So, for example, in a case involving a baby or a child, as we know, all parents are responsible for taking care of their kids. So the defendant is of course not going to be responsible for taking care of their kids. So the defendant is of course not going to be responsible for paying to compensate parents for taking care of their children a normal amount.

Anisa Dattu: 51:07

But sometimes our injured plaintiffs need so much care one or more of the parents end up quitting their job just to make sure their child's needs are met and the defendant is not going to be responsible for the parent's loss of income, but rather they're going to be responsible to provide resources to equip the child with care beyond the typical parent-child context while the injured party is still a child. So that is not going to be calculated based on the parent's income loss. It will be calculated based on the market value of the child's needs Once that child reaches the age of 18, if they require ongoing attendant care, then the defendant is responsible for all of the care required. Again, value through the lens of the injured person's needs and not the losses borne by their caregiver.

Warren Berg : 51:54

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, that the injured person gets the money, not the person who is providing the gratuitous care?

Cynthia Carels: 52:01

So that's actually why Anissa framed this as what's commonly known as an in-trust claim, because, yes, the claim actually belongs to the injured plaintiff. The claim does not belong to the provider of the service. Injured plaintiff, the claim does not belong to the provider of the service, but our argument as lawyers is that these individuals are bringing their claim in trust so that they can properly pay their service providers for that valuable support once they actually have money in hand from their lawsuit.

Warren Berg : 52:29

And how do you determine the value of the service to your client?

Anisa Dattu: 52:32

So the way we do that is by determining the value of the service as the cost of obtaining that service outside of their family. We evaluate this on a commercial replacement basis. Also, even where a family member has been caring for an individual person up until the time of trial and they will likely continue to do so, those future care costs still must be awarded for all the care that the plaintiff reasonably requires.

Warren Berg : 52:56

And what if there, let's say, there's other funding available for this type of thing, like the Alberta AIDS to Daily Living program?

Cynthia Carels: 53:03

So the plaintiff's award doesn't necessarily get discounted because of government programs that exist today, and there's good reasons behind that. First of all, where someone has caused harm to another person, it's the wrongdoer's responsibility to compensate the plaintiff and not taxpayers' dollars. And secondly, as we all know, governments can be whimsical. We can't guarantee that a program that's in place today is going to be there tomorrow, and every line of a budget item is subject to being discontinued at any time, so there is no guarantee that funding is going to continue on in the future.

Warren Berg : 53:37

Speaking of things that might be changing over time. How long does it take for these types of claims to be resolved?

Cynthia Carels: 53:43

Oh boy, that's a big question. Litigation can certainly take some time, but it's going to depend on the complexity of the case, as well as the parties that are involved in it. City of the case, as well as the parties that are involved in it. Now, the good news is that plaintiffs are entitled to interest that accrues over time, which is dictated by a law in Alberta known as the Judgment Interest Act, and the interest is really meant to compensate an injured party for that time, for the value of the money, as well as that delay in receiving compensation.

Warren Berg : 54:11

This is Ask the Lawyer. On Winspeaker Radio CFWE and CJWE. I'm Warren Berg and joining us today, cynthia Carrolls and Anissa Datu from we're Bowen LLP talking about what goes into evaluating a claim in a personal injury or medical malpractice litigation. We're Bowen can be reached at 780-424-2030 or online at we'rebowencom. That's W-E-I-R-B-O-W-E-Ncom. When we started this show, we talked about punishment damages, like making a claim against a drunk driver because they should have known not to drink and drive. Can you tell us about these types of damages?

Cynthia Carels: 54:48

Well, it might be used as a punishment measure I think you're meaning punitive damages or aggravated damages and these are non-compensatory damages and while some cases should have some form of this claim, punitive damages and aggravated damages are not as common as you might think. Now, punitive damages are intended for the purpose of punishing the wrongdoer, and courts will award these when something is further required to condemn a wrongdoer's actions because they acted in some sort of malicious, high-handed or reprehensible way. So when the court wants to actually specifically denounce a wrongdoer's behavior and make it publicly known that it wasn't acceptable, they can use this category of damages for punishment.

Anisa Dattu: 55:32

And aggravated damages are damages that the court can award when an event has occurred in a humiliating or undignified circumstance, or where the wrongdoer's conduct has been particularly high-handed again. So, for example, if the wrongdoer was motivated by malice and increased the plaintiff's mental distress over and above the existing anguish they've already caused, aggravated damages could be awarded.

Warren Berg : 55:55

How do they determine how much to award in those cases?

Cynthia Carels: 55:57

You know it's going to depend a lot on the level of blameworthiness of the wrongdoer, but the courts have also developed a bit of a framework of several different factors to take into account.

Anisa Dattu: 56:07

They'll look at whether the misconduct was planned and deliberate, the intent and motive of the wrongdoer, the length of time the conduct persisted, whether the wrongdoer was aware that this behavior was well frankly wrong and whether the interest that was violated was deeply personal to the plaintiff and believe it or not.

Cynthia Carels: 56:27

if the defendant was already sentenced in the criminal justice system for their harmful actions, a court might actually be less likely to award punitive damages in the civil system because, at least in theory, the wrongdoer has already been punished.

Warren Berg : 56:42

Does that mean that somebody can be held responsible in the criminal system and the civil system?

Cynthia Carels: 56:47

Yeah, and we do see it. The criminal system obviously has a different framework and different goals. The burden of proof and the level of evidence required to establish facts is significantly higher in the criminal courts than a civil burden of proof, but both of these systems can address that same behavior concurrently for different measures of relief.

Anisa Dattu: 57:08

Yeah, so for example, you could have a case dealing with sexual assault that moves through the criminal system to determine guilt and then what sentence or punishment is appropriate. But then the survivor could also file a claim for a battery civilly to claim for their damages, for their personal injuries.

Cynthia Carels: 57:24

Yeah, and we're seeing more and more of these kinds of sexual assault claims coming forward, particularly in institutional conduct contexts like residential schools, churches, sports clubs, that kind of thing, and I know every show. We talk specifically about limitation periods, but these kinds of cases have actually been exempted from limitation periods in recent years, so these lawsuits are becoming more common, especially with the rise of encouragement for victims to come forward through things like the Me Too movement, and in fact we're. Bowen is part of many alliances, but one of them is actually the Sexual Abuse Lawyers Alliance, where we work with other trauma-informed lawyers across the country to be able to effectively represent victims in these kinds of cases.

Warren Berg : 58:06

All right. Well, thank you very much both for speaking and returning to us today about what goes into evaluating a claim. As always, we've covered a lot of ground today in the February edition of Ask the Lawyer with our sponsor, we're Bowen LLP in Edmondson, and we look forward to learning much more through this series, which takes place here on CFWE and CJWE on the last day of every month. Special thanks today to Cynthia Carrolls and Anissa Datu for joining me in the studio. If you need information on any types of legal things like this we've spoken about here today, you can go to their website we'rebowencom W-E-I-R-B-O-W-E-Ncom 780-424-2030. You can also find a link to Ask the Lawyer on our homepage, where these shows will be available to stream on demand.